IB 2010 First Post to class of 2012
We begin our two years together looking at the Enlightenment and the French Revolution. The question I want to start with comes from an essay by Charles Tilly, “Does Modernization Breed Revolution?” In other words, are revolutions inevitable due to the forces unleashed in society through modernizing industry, political institutions, social mobilization, etc.?
I would like your discussion to be in two stages.
Part the first, your initial submission should be completed by next Tuesday’s class, Sept. 24th. This should just be your initial gut reaction / answer to the question.
Part the second, will be after clarification and readings in class about the Enlightenment, models of revolution and consideration of the French Revolution, in approximately three weeks. And you will be expected to post a clarified answer along with two critical responses to your classmates.
It could be argued that modernization in and of itself is a revolution, though this is open to semantic debate. If viewing the word "revolution" as signifying a proletarian uprising, then modernization has not always caused revolution. For instance, American and British industrialization in the 19th century did not cause rioting or bloodshed in the slighest, an instance of modernization perhaps not causing a revolution.
ReplyDeleteThat said, Daniel, I'm curious as to whether the question lends itself to a specific defition of
"revolution," or if the debate over the word is intentional.
I personally would say that revolution is a necessity of revolution. As new technologies develope, political views change, and economic turns are taken, the human race must throw off old establishments to incorperate the changes and changing times, unless the governments and establishments are causing or encouraging the changes. In less "flowery" terms, people change, and attempt to change their nations, and if governments resist this, those governments must be overthrown and replaced, to keep up with the changing times. In even shorter terms, yes, 9.5 times out of 10, modernization will breed revolution.
ReplyDeleteThe relationship between revolution and modernization is not one of strict causality but instead one of strong correlation. Like Vid pointed out, not every revolution was caused by technological advancement or overall societal modernization. For example, the 1950s overthrow of the Batista regime was caused by factors such as economic recession, suppression of freedom of speech and press, and a popular alternative, e.g. Castro, as was the revolution that took place in Petrograd at the dawn of that same century.
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, in many cases modernization has been linked with revolution. I think the Revolutions of 1848 provide the best example. Industrialization was shaking the continent of Europe. In addition to the greater awareness of the world this brought about, structural inadequacies provided another reason for plebeian discontentment. Faster ships and better trading routes stimulated the growth of mold on potatoes in the 1840s which led to the Irish Potato Famine and widespread riots in Germany and Krakow. The French Revolution is another good example- as feudalism dissolved and the enlightenment occurred, the middle-class became unhappy with the tyranny of Louis XVI which allowed charismatic demagogues like Robespierre to storm the Bastille, behead the aristocracy, et cetera.
I think the bottom line is that modernization allows the working class to become aware of existing oppression or undesirable conditions, which can then motivate them to action, though this is still only one way that revolutions can take place.
Modernization itself breeds intellectualism, and intellectualism is the driving force behind many revolutions. Intellectualism can give one a sense of power that they do or do not posses and thus can lead to the rise or downfall of a certain ideal or philosophy. If an intellectual figure begins discussing an ideal in the right light it will gain momentum and followers, which will ensure a change in society is made (the beginning of a revolution). Modernization or evolution is a bit of a revolution as new ideas, technologies, ways of life phase out the old and cause big changes in society.
ReplyDeleteSocities (at least the stable ones) pass through the ages based in basic origins. With the onset of modernization, a passage from the ancient to the new, these roots cannot survive without alteration, hence revolution.
ReplyDeleteRevolutions are inevitable with the introduction of new technologies and in that sense new ideas. Due to the constant need to develop and change, society is bound to discover a newer, more efficient way of life and must compensate for that change through revolution.
ReplyDeleteRevolutions tend to happen after modernazation due to the changing technologies that are available to different people. Mainly though it is the spread of items throughout the class systems since modernazation makes goods cheaper. After the pooer people get a taste of what it is like to be wealthy and have something nice thay no longer feel that they are below everyone else. In fact they wonder why certain people are above them and why money makes them somehow more worthy and better than themselves. These ideas cuase unrest and lead to revolution.
ReplyDeleteIt could also be the expanse of knowledge and learning brought on with modernization. When education becomes available to people of all classes they then can form thoughts that are at a higher level than how much something costs at the market. They can wonder how rich people got so rich and if it was at all possible for them to be wealthy and in charge of others in society as well. People with these kinds of thoughts can spread dreams of equality among the lowers classes again causeing unrest and the eventual uprising and revolution.
I would say that modernization will generally bring some type of revolution. It may be that many people who wish to modernize society with better healthcare, education, technology, etc. begin a revolution so that their wishes may come true.
ReplyDeleteModernization in certain aspects of life could bring about new ways of thinking and cause people to question other aspects of their life that they wish to be changed and so a revolution begins so that all parts of life are changed so that people see it as fitting.
Modernization in other societies or modernization that only affects one part of society could also open the eyes of many other people as to the quality of their homes, workplace, environment and make them begin to question if they want better and may start a revolution so that everyone gets the benefits of revolution.
Even after modernization has settled into society, and certain aspects of life have been changed for the majority, some may refuse the new ways and begin a revolution to change everything back to how it was.
In my opinion, with modernization comes revolution, whether it is violent or peaceful, long or short; it may even be hardly noticeable to many. The only question is how long until it happens.
Modernization is all around us happening daily. Modernization can happen in small scales such as the release of a new ipod or larger scales such as the passing of a new law. In addition, revolutions also can have different degrees, such as simple social protest or outright violent upcries.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion, modernization brings change and new ways to think but not always large scale revolutions. The release of the iphone 4 did not bring a revolution. Among customers. But in a world of constant modernization there is points of revolution occuring on another scale such as the protest against new Arizona immigration laws.
I personally do not believe modernization causes revolution, but rather the decisions of government causes revolution. It is safe to say that modernization does play a key role in revolutions, however if we look at several revolutions that have occurred over the centuries, it is the cause of ruling governments. For example: The French Revolution was a result of French Monarchy spending too much of state money on personal items and other frivolous activities such as gambling. The American Revolution was a result of too high of taxes from British Monarchy. Modernization on the other hand causes industrial revolutions. These inventions cause people to conform to the new standards rather than the standards they are used to.
ReplyDeleteI believe revolutions are the effect of governments, where as modernization is an effect of industrial revolutions or inventions.
I think that there is a certain point where a society can not grow anymore and because of that something big has to happen. Now the time that it takes to grow can be slow or can be fast. There is also not a point where we can just stop and be pleased as a society and not want more or learn more. So there will always be growth.
ReplyDeleteTo be able to keep growing there has to be come change so knew learning can become an option
As the world modernizes in ways of acquiring information and simply in the courseof history, the gaps between classes and general status quo do as well, so revolution is inevitable. For instance, the American revolution was the final push the French needed to overthrow their King and commence their own revolution. Tsarist autocracy destroyed itself in Russia by oppressing the lower class to their rope's end. Alterations in the global status quo and the battle of the classes are what lead to revolution, and both are caused by modernization of technology, philosophy, and history.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion, modernization does not occur without revolution. Revolutions occur when there are advancements in industry, philosophy, knowledge, and technology. When advancements take place, people realize that their lives could be improved, and many choose to fight for the cause. They no longer want to live in ancient times, and advance. While the advancement may be for the best in long term, the society must adjust to the advancement, which may be difficult. They must change previous practices and in some cases, a completely new life. A revolution may occur simply when there is a new advancement. There is something new in the world, and people are willing to fight for it. But another revolution may occur when the advancement is put into place. Because the society has to change it’s ways, many people may be upset. Not everyone wants to change their ways, and they might fight against the modernization. This is the ups and downs of society, all caused by modernization.
ReplyDeleteBecause modernization presents to us new ideas, people are more likely to realize that there is corruption, or that there will be. It also opens up opportunities for free thought; people are more likely to fight for their right when they understand it, whether it is morally wrong or if it is against their beliefs. Consider the idea of having an African American president--republicans can't stand the thought, and democrats approve of the idea. However, there ARE exceptions to the generalization i just made. There are always exceptions to the rule, but that is also a part of revolution. People find those exceptions and take advantage, and that is categorized into a revolution? I am not saying 'yes, revolution is feuled by modernization,' but i am also not saying that it isn't.
ReplyDeleteI do not believe that all modernizations will cause revolution. If this were so, our world would be experiencing revolutions every day. Our world is always modernizing technologically. The driving factor of revolution is changing in major beliefs. Coming across smaller ideas over time will not cause a revolution, but if huge gains of knowledge come over short periods of time revolution is prone to happening. People will always be willing to stand up for what they believe in and what they know. If anyone tries to tell them otherwise, they will fight for what they believe in. I hope that I world always continues to modernize. I believe that the world will always revolutionize but not with every modernization that occurs.
ReplyDeleteI personally believe that modernazation does breed revolution, though not every seperate modernazation causes a revolution alone. With an ever changing society, comes new opportunities and newly formulated ideas as to how to run and govern societies.
ReplyDeleteAs industry, society and political institutions progress, ideas and methods for preforming certain acts change. Along with this progression, always comes new ideas. These ideas grow and change with each individual mind until the idea has grown into something larger. Some ideas are for the better of all, while some cause people to attempt to change the society they live in (something that can be seen as either a good or bad thing). This can be as simple as a new suggestion for the mass, to someone trying to change everything all together. As I said above, I believe that modernazations combine to cause revolutions. Not every little modernazation can cause an individual revolution, but a combination of them can. For example, though this is a different type of revolution than what first comes to mind, the internet had revolutionized how people today live and work all together. The ability to connect and gain knowledge so easily has caused a drastic change in how people do things every day. The internet is no small feat either, rather the combination of multiple components, which grew to revolutionize our lives.
I believe that modernization occurs too frequently to influence revolutions. Our world is constantly evolving, yet citizens beliefs progress much slower. Just because society is advancing doesn't mean that citizen's perspectives follow. I believe that to a certain extent revolution can result from modernization but revolutions occur from a change in beliefs not an advancement in society.
ReplyDeleteI think that it can be said that modernization is able to breed revolution and that revolution is often an effect of modernization but I'm not so convinced it always breeds revolution. It's the change that modernization brings that causes the revolution, however I agree with C.J. when he talks about intellectualism being the driving force behind many revolutions. In modernization new ideas, thoughts, ways of life, and technology start to surface often changing the thinking of many parts of society and I believe that it's always the argument between the traditional ways and the new surfacing modern ways that cause the revolution. There will always be people that disagree, and people are always thinking new thoughts, that said there will always be people disagreeing with these said thoughts usually resulting in a revolution.
ReplyDeleteI do believe modernizations breed revolution in some aspects. Certain modernizations definitely bring upon a revolution. I think it all depends on how big or influential the modernization is. Societies in the past have developed all sorts of modernizations but not all have proved to be an influence on a revolution. But some have demonstrated success. For example, the Industrial Revolution introduced new technologies (machines) and the process of manufacturing, enabling new employment opportunities. Ultimately the most important revolutions seem to branch out from the most effective modernizations.
ReplyDeleteI would have to say that modernization has to be present in some form in order for there to be a revolution because without the changing of society there would be nothing that people would be opposing. New things occur with industrialization or in politics and not everyone will agree with them, so a group of people will then rise against it and fight for what they believe is right and the others will defend the opposing side. This sometimes leads to a revolution involving blood shed and sometimes not. I'm not saying that every time there is modernization there is a revolution but at the times where revolution occurs modernization is part of what led up to it.
ReplyDeleteChange in general breeds revolution. With almost any change in this world, some people will agree with it, and others will oppose it. If the change is large enough, people will be willing to fight for what they believe. Modernization is a major change. Not only that, but modernization creates an opportunity for a power shift; human nature is to try to have as much power as possible. Does modernization make revolutions inevitable? Not necessarily. Sometimes the split between who has power and who does not will be to strong for any real revolution. Modernization does, however, make revolution quite likely.
ReplyDeleteGenerally, modernization is often seen as leading to revolutions such as the French Revolution. Modernization does lead to revolution. This does not necessarily mean a stereotypical violent revolution. Modernization is a change in the way a society thinks in order to form a modern way of life or modern ideas. Because of this, modernization inherently breeds a revolution in thought, at least to some extent.
ReplyDeleteModernization has a definite correlation with revolution. As the world modernizes people start to have a greater understanding of the world around them and realize in what kind of position they are in. For example in the French Revolution people began to comprehend what kind of monarchy that ruled their country which led them to revolt.
ReplyDeleteDuring the early modern period many scientific discoveries were made. This modernization created a profound effect on people’s understanding of the world. Because there was evidence against many churches teachings, people began to question what they were being taught. This led people to break away from churches, which could be included as a sort of revolution.
Modernization causes people to question their world. When this occurs people begin to realize how they are being treated which ultimately leads to revolution.
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ReplyDeleteI believe that the inexorably ongoing process of modernization does, in fact, make revolution inevitable. However, when I say that revolution is inevitable, I mean that there will always be revolution, but the revolution is seldom notable. Modernization is, by its very essence, change in society, whether it is technological, political or social. In the case of technological modernization, some people will always be dissatisfied, perhaps for reasons of the restrictions on it, or allegations that it is wrong in some way, etc. The revolution may be merely a few anti-fanatics buying, for example, an iPad just to shoot it with a sniper rifle, but it is most certainly there.
ReplyDeleteI believe that modernizstion does breed revolution. First of all, modernizationcleads to changes in the insights of the people, which may also lead to the questioning of power. When the power is questioned, and with the people's best interest in mind, revolution is quickly to follow. Changes are made and in turn, revolution follows.
ReplyDeleteThroughout time, the world has constantly been developing improvements in technology, changes in government, and new social ideas. These advances result in revolutions, regardless of whether the revolution is wanted or not. With changes and improvement in life, the people will revolt against the people that believe in the old and have the power over the society. Thus the new people will take over, and the new developments and improved ideas will be followed by the society. But then even newer ideas will be developed, and the people with the newer ideas will revolt against the people that had the new ideas and power. This results in a endless cycle of revolting, taking over, developing new ideas and advancements, and once again revolting, where society is constantly trying to improve life and revolts so that these improvements can be carried out.
ReplyDeleteModernization represents a large industrial and technological evolution over a short span of time. These changes will undoubtedly have a prominent effect on how the modernized society functions. Whether or not these social changes are enough to spawn a revolution is uncertain and is completely dependent on if the political, economic and belief systems evolve and adapt to match the newly modernized civilization. If there is no adaptation then a revolution will be ensured in order to correct this imbalance and to make sure that the whole society will progress as at an even rate. In short modernization does not breed revolution in all cases, but revolution will occur if society fails to adapt to modernization in all aspects of society.
ReplyDeleteIn Charles Tilly’s essay it provides data, and information about
ReplyDeletethe situation of the time period of both revolution, and
modernization. According to him modernization is described as industrialization or demographic expansion, and revolution something though violence, and or political conflict. So modernization, and revolution do have a direct parallel, because from conflict, and violence there has to be change, whether it be small or big. But there is no textbook answer due to the fact that both modernization, and revolution’s definitions can be differently viewed, and vague with modernization being ambiguous, and revolution being controversial.
I do believe that modernization, and revolution do run hand, and hand because where there is fault, there is change, and fix. And whether it is like Zac said, just an iPad, or a new way airports are run, from 9/11.
Revolutions are more likely to occur with a modernizing society. With modernization, changes would begin to take place in society that would start to cause people to contemplate the new advancements and whether or not they are in agreement with them. The disagreements would start revolutions and these revolutions could be new ways of thinking or working or they could, unfortunately, be in more violent forms of revolutions. The revolutions would force the society to adopt these new ideas and once again, modernizes. I believe that revolutions and modernization work in a continious cycle as long as people will have various opinions and are willing to share those and try to change the view of others.
ReplyDeleteyes, modernization does breed revolution, if we define revolution as a destinct change in the social stucture of a society. modernization begets technology and technology enspires social change. technology is created for the wants of specific peoples. when the technology is created for there wants they no longer want it instead it becomes a changed part of their culture. for example prior to the fiftys in the united states the cities were highly populated because the pople were forced to live there to work there. however people wanted to live outside of the city but still continue to work in it. during the fifties, because of the modernization of the us, we were able to create the techology needed for suberbs. thus as we created these suberbs there was a cultural revolution as the citie dwellers moved away from the city as they wanted to. humans have a need for progress and so modernization is an almost constant part of our culture and as such so is revolution. thus modernization breeds revolution. --- nick riley
ReplyDeleteThe effect of modernization on revolution depends on the definition of revolution. When discussing revolution in the abstract, it pertains to change, not necessarily change in a regime, or even ideas, sometimes just atmosphere. Simplistically, does modernization induce revolution, yes. Modernization implies a change in thought, a change in the way something is done, change in culture, or the tents of certain beliefs. Therefore is revolution is change, then, yes, modernization does breed revolution. However, revolutions regarding governments and regimes aren't always caused by modernization. Modernization in its positive sense seems to imply some sort of improvement. It implies the use of technology to increase efficiency. It implies the cultivation of ideas to question the tenets of a certain culture, form of government, religion, etc. It implies a question, and an answer. Though the truth of the answer is subject to the thinker, modernization implies that a vast majority of the populous discusses opinions on a certain question and reaches a sort of major consensus. In that sense, when the governing majority either refuses to acknowledge the change or disagrees with it, when the populous is in enough accordance and feels very passionate about the subject, revolution can occur. Usually, such revolutions occur in oligarchies when the majority of the populous has the same ideals and just a minority that holds the power disagrees. If the minority tries to force their ideas on the majority, a bloody revolution might occur. As for revolutions like a technological revolution, those have a direct correlation to modernization. For as ideas and rules and laws of science change, the instruments used to measure or do math, etc change also.
ReplyDeleteand to A.E. you seem to be conflicted when you talk about the conection between revolution and modernization because you seem to agree with me that revolution is change however the man's ideas that you are using for support have a much more specific definition of revolution that doesn't directly support your ideas... soryy i promise i'm not trying to bash you i just kinda am :(.... oh and i hope that i'm allowed to be this informal on the blog?
ReplyDeleteRevolutions occur as people evolve, as people question what is and attempt to discover their own truths. Revolutions occur when people decide not to give in to baser insticts, not to follow a crowd, but be proud of their thoughts. That's when ideas grow, are shared, and are improved. That's when change happens.
ReplyDeleteModernization can breed revolution, such as the industrial revolution where new and modern machinery bred revolution. On the other hand, revolution can occur not as a result of modernization, but because of social mobilization, where a society's change in ideas, beliefs and morals can breed revolution. An example of this would be the American Revolution, where the American society's mobilization set the revolution going. Modernization does not necessarily need to be present in a revolution, though it has played a key factor in many revolutions. It also depends on your definition of modernization and what exactly it means to be modern. For example, the idea that monarchies are corrupt and should be overthrown is present in many revolutions, yet that is not necessarily a modern idea.
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ReplyDeleteNo, I do not believe that modernization causes revolutions (at least not the bloody kind). Modernization is happening all the time, all around us, yet revolutions are not very common. Revolutions are caused by oppression, which includes anything from famine to a corrupt government. Generally anything that makes the public unhappy causes revolution and as far as I know, modernization does not really make people unhappy enough to cause a revolution.
ReplyDeleteThere always has been and there always will be economic, social and political issues which might just lead to the revolution. It is possible that modernization may have something to do with certain revolutions, but modernization would have nothing to do with the birth of an evil tyrant or something of that sort where a revolution could erupt.
Modernization is the creation of more complex and sophisticated technology. With this in mind, technology includes everything from cars and phones to weapons and it is this that creates revolution or war. There will always be someone out there that will utilize these upgrade technologies to start a revolution. If weapons are made, then they must be use. In order to use these weapons, they must be bought from the hands of the creator. Like mentioned before, weapons will always be generated, and they will not be sitting around waiting for us to create peace agreements.
ReplyDeleteReading these responses, the main point I must make is that to say modernization is the sole cause of revolution is a stretch. As technology advances and changes, of course the climate of a given culture is bound to change. However, to say a culture is only inspired to shift by this modernization is an insult to mankind's capabilities. What starts revolution are the drastic reactions to modernization and, after their occurence, the conclusions the public draws about said event. A riot could be seen as a catastrophe or a miracle depending on a population's analysis of the riot. Modernization is generally not a direct cause of revolution, but the events which occur afterwards and the reactions to said events enable society to revolutionize by analyzing it's most drastic actions.
ReplyDeletePablo, could it be argued that modernization spawns oppression, and thus revolution? I may be wrong, but from what I understand of Russia in the days leading up to its 1917 revolution, a major public outcry came from mistreatment in factories. Factories would not have been there had it not been for industrialization, and industrialization equates to modernization. And Joe, how did modernization unmask the French monarchy? Was it because of education, philosophy, scientific advances...?
ReplyDeleteModernization creates a fertile environment in which previously unexplored aspects of society grow. Again with the czars, factories had been no concern because they had not existed. Thanks to industrialization, the Russian monarchy, constrained for centuries without progress to its own tradition, was asked to intervene in factories, which were all but new and had no precedence, and in the slowness with which it had hoped to preserve itself, it ended up destroying itself. So this refutes my intial thesis, that the change beget by modernization inspires revolution without vacillation. Only in countries with governments that are inflexible with age can modernization serve as a seed for revolution.
God. I wrote this gigantic comment and it all got deleted. Okay, I'll keep this brief.
ReplyDeleteCassie: YES. So many different factors contribute to revolution. And hasn't revolution existed, hasn't WAR existed, for much longer than what we'd refer to as "the modern period?" The answer to that question might be semantically altered: do we consider modernization any form of progess?
Hunter: I understand what you're saying, but oppression's always existed. Think about despotism. Modernization is just another way we can allow ourselves to oppress people. The method's not new, though: liken factory workers to slaves and foremen to overseers, and you'll see what I mean.
Oppression doesn't always engender revolution, either. Look at the Jews before World War II. First of all, no one was sure anything was really happening, and people were in severe denial about the impending rumors of genocide. People didn't unionize quickly enough, and once Hitler began killing people, it was already too late and there was no opportunity to unionize. The point: oppression can make revolution happen, but you can't be TOO oppressed. A successful revolution, then, requires the following:
1) UNIONIZATION. People have to recognize that they are suffering communally, and draw on the strength they have in numbers to effect change, temporarily putting aside their differences for the common good.
2) GOOD TIMING. You can't unionize when you're all being killed. There's another form of good timing, too: a revolution can't take too long. If it takes too long, familiarity will breed contempt and schism will occur.
3) LUCKY SITUATION. If the establishment has the resources to shut you down, kill you all quickly, and tie you down further, you're screwed. Usually they can't tie you down that quickly, but in some cases it's happened.
4) HOPE. You're not going to revolt unless there's a promise of a better future. No guarantees, though; ever heard of Vladimir Lenin?
Taylor- I like how you explained how you define revolution in an atypical way. It made your answer more clear and powerful.
ReplyDeleteReine- I like what you have to say. However, I'm not sure that your post clearly answers the question.
Jenny- I strongly agree with you. I do believe that modernization and revolution often cause each other. I do believe in some instances one can exist without the other, though.
@Jenny - I like your answer overall, but I have to disagree with part of it. I don't think that every Modernazation breeds two strongly opposing views that begin to clash with one another. Perhaps the larger, more influential ones, but most wouldn't have that kind of power, if you know what I'm getting at.
ReplyDelete@Emily T - The way you replied to the question, it seemed as though every bit of Modernazation causes revolution. Did you mean it more in a general sense or smaller? If smaller, than I have to disagree, as every little thing isn't going to breed a whole new revolution, you know?
Good to get everyone in on the initial online discussion. It is nice to see you are thinking about the big picture as we move along through content. I enjoyed the early-bird entries for responses to peers, not to worry if you did not respond this particular episode was for initial thoughts. The next round will be a refined consideration of Tilly's thesis and critical reflection on two peers' entries. Until next time....
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